stop crying turn coat

Obama won the primary partly by making slight sexist comments about Hillary - nothing direct, things like backhanded comments that she was good “in her element” (the kitchen?).
Now he is trying the same thing against Palin, but the republicans are doing what Hillary should have done and fought back.
As a Hillary supporter I am disgusted with Obama I will vote for Palin.

Notice how the supporters clap and laugh at the “You can put lipstick on a pig” statement before he finishes the rest of the phrase. What do you think those supporters though he meant? I’m pretty sure I got his meaning.

Just check out youtube and watch j mccain with his lipstick on a pig comment, then try to spin things. The republicans are in trouble.

The arrogant, smug attitude of Mr. “words matter” Obama, would now have us believe he didn’t mean to imply governor Palin is a Pig. No one is buying that. The idea that we the people misunderstood him or that we are merely taking the lead of the McCain campaign is insulting. This attempt at reverse indignation is an embarrassment to the Democrat party and a clear sign of desperation on the part of Mr. Obama.

John McCain said the same thing about Hillary Clinton’s plan for universal health care. Is this any different?

Looks like a 5th grader too!

He looks like the guy on the cover of MAD Magazine…only a darker version!

“You can put monkey ears on a pig, but he’s still a pig.”

McCain used the exact same phrase against Hillary back then Lynette. Get a life and let’s focus on real issues.

Oh no…go get Obama some tissue.

His true colors are really showing now!

And this is a headline?

You know to be honest, I am a hardcore conservative republican, but to see all the blatantly cheap strategies that my party has taken is disgusting me. I defended Gov. Palin when the media attacked her religion, motherhood, and family, but this is just too much. I really was feeling electrified when they picked a fresh face as VP, when I heard her speech at the RNC, I was turned off because she spent more time attacking then sharing who she is and what she is all about and what she will do to compliment Sen. McCain. I have learned more about her by watching Greta Van Susteran. Furthermore I have been turned off by the same speech she has been giving since the RNC. I have been trying to keep track of their campaign and as of when I started counting she has repeated the same old tierd speech she did when she spoke at the RNC. I am looking forward to seeing her raw and uncut in her ABC interview tomorrow to see what she is about and what plans she has for this country. I also expect to continue learning as we hear her on her own and not scripted. I was a solid McCain supporter before she came on, less hearing her speech at the RNC and even less after the same redundant speeches she has been giving over the past week. The McCain campaign’s strategy is really turning me off alot. I am not a big fan of Obama’s policy and/or agenda, but he certainly has broken it down more than McCain has. I admire his service to our country and the fact that he is a POW, I admire that he looked into a female for his running mate, but I want to know how all of this is going to be better for my family, fellow Americans, and I. Obama sheerly has done a better job of outlining this. He spent far less time on attacks and cliches(not saying that he has not used them)but I am afraid that with the republican strategy Obama will blow us out of the water and surprise us later with a win. McCain’s camp is getting too comfortable with their position in this election and strategy and I have a feeling it will backfire. I feel we Reps need to grow up, stop bashing on our opponents be better then them and focus on issues that do matter. I hate saying this but, I find torturous calm when I here Obama talk then when I here McCain talk. Torture because I do not agree with Obama and calm because he actually spends time on outlining his policy/agenda or at least more than McCain does. Maybe its his eloquence, what do I know. Fellow Republicans lets be better and just focus and demand that McCain gives us more explanation other than “Country First” “Surge in Iraq” “POW” “Maverick” or “Reform” I want to hear PLANS!! I want to hear middle class. Whats in this for us other than the other important issue like security. I want to hear “I John McCain pledge to help middle class hardworking Americans with this, or “I plan on doing that” I want to know what he will do to make our budget steps closer to a surplus. Also I would love for him to say that I will FIGHT to outlaw lobbyists and make all politicians state and local gov’t officials swear under oath to not part take in lobbyists. This is the stuff I would love to hear to show he truly means change. Is this too much to ask? I think not. I do not want to hear God or Jesus. I want to hear about US AMERICANS not wars or Gods or abortion or gay marriage. I want just the facts thats it. Please.

read obama’s full quote. he wasn’t referring to palin. anyone who says he was referring to palin needs to learn about context. he was clearly referring to how the mccain campaign is trying to put a different spin on the same old ideas. he didn’t even mention palin.

I don’t hear republicans talking about the issues here. What’s at stake? Focus on the issues!

Enough he said she said lipstick journalism!

Good Grief !! I am an independent women voter from Pennsylvania. I am growing very weary of McCain AND Palin. McCain used this same expression in May of 2008! What is the freakin’ difference?? My Goodness. If Palin wants to take the comment personally, then SHE IS WEAK and I will NOT vote for her OR McCain. if you wan to play with big dogs, SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH IT. the comment was never meant for her to begin with.

I’d pick my fights if I were you. I hate being in the doghouse.

I was there. Doctor Long was quite impressive. My wife, a disaffected Hillary voter, was quite moved by what she had to say. I think maybe someone needs to start looking over Obama’s words before they come out of his mouth. He is losing this thing all on his own.

It is clear what obama meant. His show of unprofessionalish, is NOT some one I would want to represent me as an AMERICAN.

I don not believe, at this point, there still are Dems in favor of McCain. In order to be a Republican you must have a lizard brain, something a true Dem does not and could not have.

I don’t want a drop-out, lying breeder and a one-foot-in-the-grave, last in his class hack running the country.

McCain used the same comment about Hillary Clinton. I guess Lynette Long will have to vote for the independant party…

This is news? I don’t think so.

This is just some disgruntled pig.

He wasn’t calling PALIN a pig…he was referring to the REPUBLICAN PARTY!!!! You are such IDIOTS!! He was speaking about the republicans and then said “you can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig”!!! You idiot republicans immediately wanted to link that statement with Palin’s statement about the pitbull hockey mom line….get the facts straight!!!!!!

Picking your VP solely based on the fact that she is a female… is that not sexism in itself?

I don’t believe Obama was calling Palin a pig, the context referred to Mccain’s politcal stance. However, if you can’t take it don’t dish it, remember the RNC.

And yet McCain used the same phrase when describing one of Hillary Clinton’s proposals - where was Ms. Long’s outrage then?!?

and we as American do not need someone that thinks like a 5th grader as a VP nominee Ms. Palin…your lipstick is as artificial as you are!!! Take your snide redneck valley girl ways back to Alaska and pray for the when smart Americans care what you think….

This person needs psychological evaluation since obviously she is having a hard time using basic mental functions and has her wires crossed. This kind of warped logic is what is going to take this country down the hole even further then the current adminstation has done in the last 8 years. Obama’s comment was not calling Palin a pig. Get it?

Well, I guess the addage is true. You can put lipstick on a pig, and still call it a pig, but if you put it on a pit bull, you call it a hockey mom, eh?
You are all a bunch of idiots. Go ahead and pick out that wedgy, you will feel alot better.

What a joke.

It’s like the pot calling the kettle black. Oh, is that racist?

The fat lady is singing. Oh, is that sexist?

If women sway this election and vote in McCain, I will forever be ashamed.

I stopped watching Fox Noise a long time ago. It was so biased in reporting that it made me appear stupid when discussing with other intelligent men.

What about when McCain said the exact same phrase about Hillary?

WAKE UP PEOPLE! The importance of the upcoming election cannot be understated. Our economy is failing, we’re in the fifth year of a war that was unfounded, global warming is affecting the planet, and many big corporations and public entities are not sustainable. Yet the American public seems intent to continue to allow our country to decline by focusing on non-issues instead of the major change that’s needed in the country. As an independent, I see Obama/Biden consistently talking about the big issues and McCain/Palin politiking on the appeal of personality. It’s great that McCain selected a woman, but neither he nor Palin have mentioned any new ideas for change. They only focus on a war that the majority of the country is against and talk about religius ideals that appeal to fundamentalist. McPalin is a disgrace. I will be voting Obama/Biden and will do everything I can to spread words of reason, not emotion.

Other than low-blow politics, Obama’s remark is stupid like that of a fifth grader.

He has branded himself stupid. He has attack dogs to do this kind of stupid stuff. Where is Biden?

What are the doubts about him? That inexperience will rule the day! Wouldn’t you think Obama would know better than to create a firestorm that takes the focus off message rather than gives him an opportunity to stay on point?

HERE IS THE EXAMPLE! IN bright red the lipstick the he, Obama-man, smears on himself.

What would be the fallout if he insulted a foreign leader, dignitary or president in such a manner?

Mr. Obama has shown early on that he IS NOT ready and this lipstick sticks to him as a brand of inexperience.

If the shade fits - wear it ~ baby!

I watched Obama’s speech, he used a political reference that he, John Mccain and others have been using this election. However, if they can’t take it they shouldn’t dish it, RNC.

Wow…the desperate republican hate machine in full swing…i feel sorry for you angry little people! neener neener, got you last!!

IF HE WASNT REFERING TO PALIN, HE SHOULD HAVE LEFT THE WORD LIPSTICK OUT OF IT .
HES SINKING HIS OWN CANOE….

Which campaign put out those celebrity ads back in June? Which campaign did NOTHING to talk about issues throughout their whole convention? Which campaign has made this entire election about “character” as they make snarky jokes about Obama’s community service when he was in his 20s? Who’s the 5th grader? Talk about hypocrisy. Talk about LIES. The same folks who lied to the country to get us into Iraq are lying to our faces now. Enough is enough.

As a Clinton supporter and (former) Democratic, I agree that Obama is striking back like a juvenile. But what do you expect from a 47 year old man whose only claim to fame is two autobiographies telling us what he is going to do - when he grows up.

obama is just to easy going you know he didn’t mean that.he would not insult anybody he a true american vote obama

Really!!! Then. Lynette do this, check “lipstick pig and john mccain” on google. See how many times he has said it and couple of times in reference to Hillary. You people are hypocrites.

Palin is a pig with lipstick! She can’t keep her teenage daughter from getting pregnant, how the heck is she going be able to do anything good for America’s children? Nice example from our leaders. Every mom should condone their teenage daughters sexual activity and pregnancy. Rock on super hockey mom!

John McCain is a sell-out and exposed he is just a typical Republican politician by picking Palin. He picked her to appease his base and poach Hillary votes. Palin wasn’t the best or most qualified, it’s because he knew she would be popular. How is that being a “maverick”? How is it ‘Country First”? How is this “I rather win a war than loose an election”? I’ll say it again, John McCain is a sell-out.

The most important metric for picking a VP is they are ready to step in from day one. His judgment is reckless and he gambled at our expense. The mere fact Palin is being educated on foreign policy and is avoiding the press indicates she wasn’t prepared on day one. She is running for the second highest office, but can’t answer questions from the press or public? This doesn’t alarm anyone?

I lost all my respect for John McCain. He’s not the hero today he was 35 years ago. McCain is nothing without Palin.

What does it say about a campaign that has to “mimic” what and who Obama is, not to mention hijack Obamas core message of Change from day one just to poach votes? Is that all they view Obama as, a “product” a “formula”, a “personality”? It makes McCain look weak and more importantly, the American people stupid if they fall for it.

Now all these puppets are willing to just get behind her without even knowing anything about her and try to convince the American public she is prepared to be VP or President? Not even uncertain objectiveness, caution, pause or question just because she has an “R” in front of her name? How can anyone make a clear determination reasonably in less than 60 days?

Bravo America! We look like complete idiots once again while the world watches. I am truly embarrassed of my country. I guess all isn’t lost, at least many will have Palin’s eye glass frames while our country crumbles economically. We are such tools.

British Prime Minister Backs Obama
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2008/09/brown-backs-oba.html

World wants Obama
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/09/2360240.htm?section=world

BO is down to the elementary level!!! Embarrassing…

a pig or a fifth grader a pig or a fifth grader a pig or a fifth grader??

hmm, i’ll go with the one that has a human brain.

mccain will destroy our country.

Hard-hitting reporting!

” ‘and then she said, he called her a name, and then she said that he was a fifth grader, and immature’ ” name-callers, caling name callers names. Great political coverage.

Lipstick on a Pig.??? That is an insult to the Pig.
McCains campaign is turning into a traveling medicine show, remember them? Going from town to town trying to sell that magic bug juice , you have to have a freak in the side show to draw attention to the snake oil Salesman so he can do his pitch. Pa lie n is drawing them in and McCain is trying to sell his liniment. Stay tuned , the Barbie from Alaska will wear off real soon.
A couple or so months she asked “What does the Vice President do” Now she will be just a heart beat (a weak one at that) from being President. Kinda Scarry .

Really? Does anybody care what this lady thinks? I personally think the media attention to Obama’s lipstick comment is ridiculous. For crying out loud, Lehman dropped 40% yesterday, aren’t there some bigger issues at hand?

Typical Republican hypocrasy! McSame uses the same exact expression when refering to one of Hillaries policies, but when Obama uses the expression (which means “you can’t hide the truth), to describe the ridiculousness of the Republicans being the party of “change”, suddenly it is an expression used in 5th grade name calling. We’ll, doesn’t that make McSame a 5th grader also?

Yep, when you can’t win on the issues, this what you do.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE STUPID!

THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!! You can’t actually tell me that people are believing this HOGWASH. Is this what politics has come to? It was bad enough with all the back-biting and lies as it stood BEFORE this election season, but now this is COMPLETELY out of hand. The absolutely SICKENING thing is that the American voter is being taken in by all this “sexism” via record examination and “pig in lipstick”. John McCain said the same thing about Hillary’s health care plan, did you hear screams of “sexism” then? NO!! Of coarse not!!! No one thought it was sexist, it was an EXPRESSION!!!! Ever heard of that? It’s almost like half of the county is in grade school and doesn’t have the capacity to understand the idea of “agree to disagree”. We’ve been reduced to schoolyard fights and aren’t paying attention to the fact that the vice-presidential nominee is NOT allowed to answer questions, NOT allowed to go out on her own….you know, like a …..kid….who doesn’t know better……..hmmmmmmmm.

I’m sure there’s a reason for that as well, probably because of the bully waiting to kick dirt on her pretty new dress at recess………or no one wants us to know what she’s about.

Put that in your pipe.

If we keep pretending it’s normal for a woman to be in the White House, maybe someday it will be. But if the strategists feel crying sexism or racism will get voters in their camp, we’ll see a lot more of it.
“Lipstick on a pig” is a generic remark and is now being construed as sexist by the republican camp. If you heard Obama’s full speech when he made this remark, do you truly think he was calling Palin a pig? Certainly not. But if you are a republican campaign strategist, Of course he was!!
“What’s the difference between a hockey mom and a pit bull? Lipstick.” - Sarah Palin at the RNC. Is that a sexist comment?

By all means, the McCain camp will do anything to avoid the truth, the issues or the reality of where America is today and where they would take us.

Anyone looking at Obama’s comment knows that McCain is willingly lying - again - trying to get traction by playing Palin as a victim.

We’re supposed to believe that this poor lttle girl, poor little Sarah Barracuda, who won’t answer questions unless the media shows her “deference”, who can’t do more than repeat the same lies in the same speech, whose record cannot stand up to scrutiny, is a helpless little female who must be protected from being picked on by the black man.

How cliche. How Rove. Race baiting and gender politics. Too bad the country’s issues don’t get this kind of expertise from the Republicans.

Will the McCain campaign get to have it both ways? Will their precious little pure-bred pit bull get to be trotted out to do the tricks that get the applause and then put away quickly before she makes a mess in public because she just isn’t quite housebroken yet?

Look, she barks on command! Isn’t that adorable? Who really believes the pit bull who barks on command was selected because McCain believes she could be leader of the free world, or has a clue how to address the problems we face?

Are we really supposed to fall for the idea that Sarah is a pit bull and a dainty little flower of femininity who must be shielded from the big bad public and the nasty media, but don’t worry, she can be the Vice President, or, God forbid, President, because she is feisty and has spunk? What is this, a Coen brothers’ movie?

Boy, the Republicans really do think Americans are stupid. Too bad so many of them are proving them right.

Is Carl Rove’s a pot smoker with no short-term memory? Is he like a goldfish with no memory at all? Does America not remember that McCain called Hillary Clinton’s health care plan a pig with lipstick? Isn’t Sarah Palin pounding the stump as a pitbull with lipstick? I didn’t hear any of the pundits call that sexist. Why don’t we all calm down and try to focus on the pig? The issues - the pig - the pork - the Alaskan pork.

How much drilling in Alaska is done on national land. Are we all not entitled, then, to a slice of the big-oil dividend that Alaskan’s enjoy? Who couldn’t use $1615/person/year?

Using your gender as a political basis/stunt is sexist. Taking a comment that was not directed at a person but a political issue is adolecent. These people need to get lives.

It is incredibly irresponsible to post this story without mentioning, in some way, the context of Senator Obama’s statements. Fox News is, as always, despicable.

The manchurian candidate’s blind supporters are mad because his poll numbers are slipping. Ms. Palin is more than a match for him.
Obama is a remarkable person yet he is not capable of a direct attack on substance instead he issued sexist backstabbing remarks about Hillary Clinton and now is doing the same petty insulting stuff about Palin.
His supporters have even stooped to attack her kids. That is why this ad is necessary to show that venom cannot be disguised with a polite and articulate shell.
If you don’t like Palin, fine vote for Obama just don’t try to convince me that it isn’t sexist to reference someone’s feminine behaviors appearance or family, as a potential policy fault.
Obama, is as passive aggressive as they get and he is a man.

Um, hello? It’s a commonly used phrase, get over it. In fact, mr. mcain used it himself publicly less than a year ago. .. Do your homework.

Tell me, why are all you women so “outraged” at obama, when in fact you are going to now vote for someone who does not belive in birth control for her own kids, but also condemns all abortions, even in the case of rape or incest… Now that’s about fifth-grade level education right there… I feel bad for every American woman if they get elected. (Not to mention, they are busy as we speak purging democrat voter registrations for people whose houses have been foreclosed on.)

Again, do some homework. you are all being fooled. maybe obama is not perfect, but at least they actually have *something* to say that I care about - I could care less about pitbull/hockey moms - what does that have to do with the price of gas/heat etc etc etc…

(sigh, a great writer once wrote: “The smartest republicans all know that the only people who vote republican are either rich or un-educated”… Wow… how true is that?

It is so amazing that this McCain supporter states this is sexist. If she did her homework, she would have found out that John McCain had actually stated the exact same comment just this past May in regards to Hillary Clinton’s proposed healthcare plan. Just another shining example of how the republicans are choosing to support McCain. Even a “fifth grader” is expected to do his or her homework before reporting to class! What a DUNCE!

As a woman, I am very offended by Sen. Obama’s lipstick on a pig remarks and I feel as though he owes ALL WOMEN an apology, whether or not they ever wear lipstick!!! Gov. Palin is tough, she can handle Obama’s belittlement and he is obviously threatened by her. But, as a woman who has experienced sexual harassment, I know first hand how this is played out. There were many things that happened at this job I had but one of the first things that my boss had said to me during my first week was said in front of two other men (both officers of the law) when he said “Where is your lipstick today?” and as I left the room he was trying to make them laugh because he was saying that I wanted the one young cop there to handcuff me. Sen. Obama has done this before with the “sweetie” comment to the female reporter, that is manipulative to say the least. I feel that Obama knew exactly that the lipstick on a pig remark would instigate a response to which he could then further manipulate the press and public. If Sen. McCain used this same phrase in the past, well then Obama should know that “Two wrongs don’t make a right” —that is elementary, well actually children in Kindergarten need to be taught to behave and Obama fails at this himself. He is not a good leader at all. And the fact that today he acts so smug and arrogantly laughs about it makes me like him even less, in fact I am really repulsed, Sen. Obama is the real pig — a sexist pig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lynette Long,

I don’t know how well you keep up with your tv shows, but “Are you smarter than a fifth grader?” has clearly showed that the average American adult, which would include John McCain, is not. We are much better off with Obama the fifth-grader than with an ossified John McCain. It just goes to show how desperate the Republicans are to distract everyone from the issues that really matter, since they’ve no good ideas on how to deal with those issues.

I think so much is made out of a comment. What about Chenneys remark to a reporter to go “F” himself…now thats a comment! We should focus on the issues that hit the wallet and security everything else is just nonsence.

Finally, someone is actually going to tell everybody what we women think of Obama.

I believe Obama showed his true colors yesterday. I watched him fumble for words or he lost track of what he was gona say and out came “lip stick on a pig”. Would he say that to Putin??? My next President I DON’T THINK SO………………..

first consider the source of the comment. bitter and cynical are GOP family values, they certainly have the lock on that sort of thing.
next usually when the name calling starts, the person doing the name calling is the one guilty of the crime, and in this case and that of the GOP, guilty as charging.

I used to have some respect for John McCain… he might be willing to lose and election rather than lose a war….but he obviously is willing to lose his honor and his soul rather than lose this election. He allows these lies to be put out, and then everyone repeats them, and even distorts them more, to the roaring crowd. I feel sorry for John McCain, and for this country if it elects him.

B.O. never met a tax he didn’t like,

RANGEL never met a tax he ‘PAID’.

Don’t BUY the LIE…

Just say NO to B.O.

“I don’t want a fifth grader running my country.”

———————————————————

Well that is fine he calls Sarah Palin a pig, because if he knows what pigs do he would not have. They eat garbage and clean it up. I guess congress needs a cleaning pig right now anyways.

In response to the statement by alleged former Hillary Clinton supporter, Lynette Long, that Barack Obama is like a fifth grader for saying “It’s like putting lipstick on a pig” which she thinks he was referring to Sarah Palin, I would say, lady are you nuts or just plain stupid? If you had listened to the full statement Sen. Obama made, and if you have even normal intelligence, you would know he was deriding Sen. McCain’s economic policy statement and was not smearing Gov. Palin.
I called Lynette Long an alleged Hillary Clinton supporter because I think she was only a Republican plant among real Sen. Clinton supporters.
Anyone who was a true supporter of Sen. Hillary Clinton could never support Sen. John McCain since they have been on the opposite sides of every significant issue pertaining to the rights of women in American society.

Do you think you’re going to get my vote with this kind of tactic?

No real Hillary supporter went over to McCain- anyone who says she did is either a troll or a liar.

My sentiments exactly - I’m expecting a temper tantrum any day now!

Forgive me for the ad hominem here, but anyone that would switch from hillary to mccain is obviously so focused on superficial issues that it’s not surprising that she obsesses on an analogy. The same statement that john mccain made about her former hero hillary less than a year ago. We’re getting what we deserve.

McCain used Lipstick on a Pig on Hillary–he’s a sexist pig name calling 5th grader, too, by that standard.

McCain is more of a mummy than a maverick, 26 years in washington and he hasn’t accoplished anything on energy, now all of a sudden he and his show horse is all about change ? He can’t desribe honor because he’s really a coward that has to hide be Sarrah Palin who should be #1 on his ticket because he has nonething to offer. The truth hurts and Obama Biden will be that sorry G.O.P. ticket by a landslide before Nov.4 2008. Especially in N.C. ,we have early voting and our people are mobilized right now, Fired Up and Ready To Go !!!!! My friends , Carl Rove helped us win the House and Senate, now we’re going to landslide the so-called republican party before Nov.4, 2008. So old senile John McCain can go home and fish in his pool like his good friend Al Capone !!!!!

really? what about gwb?

Didn’t McCain use that same line when talking about Hillary? Where was Lynette Long in October 2007 when that happened?

I think it’s absurd that people don’t see that Obama was attacking McCain and not Palin. You hear one word that Palin also used in a speech and rely on word association to determine the meaning of his statement. Very immature. This reminds me of the attacks on Kerry when he tried to say something about Bush, and folks tried to say he was bashing the troops.

Oh yeah, Lynette, well he’s rubber and you’re glue,
nah, nah, na-nah-nah!

If he didn’t mean to be offensive, then why didn’t he use, “walks like a duck, quacks like a duck”; could have used a half a dozen similar sayings. But he used lipstick, he knew exactly what he was saying.

This women is a idot

Pretty typical Clintonista comment. Why its news is beyond me.

Ms. Long really shouldn’t slander fifth-graders by saying Sen. Obama is like one of them!

This is not a political issue. Obama used an expression with reference to McCain’s economic plan. Let’s talk issues and let’s focus on the future of our country.

The Republican party is a bunch of winers. This is a comonly used frase, so comon n fact that McCain used the same frais twords Clinton back in Octobur.

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/mccain_rolls_out_health_plan_a.html

Anyone who thinks this is what we should be talking about instead of the issues is an anus hat.

I’ve heard the ‘lipstick on a pig’ comment many times over the years and have used it several times myself. This isn’t new and has nothing to do with Palin. The Republicans must be getting desperate to cause a fuss over this.